Why the next project should be an Eve AIO Desktop 5K


#30

What about the possibility of mimicking the Surface Book?

Create a convertible laptop that has a NON-universal connection on the back-side of the panel (maybe hidden under a kickstand).

Then put most of the guts into a keyboard and/or a MSS style desktop base that allows a full range of motion for design work.

We would be able to keep the base unit modular while allowing for the ability to upgrade the desktop-unit depending on individual preference. My firm provides both design and engineering services and the balance is roughly 1 drawing to 50 designs. Therefore in my opinion it would be more beneficial to create a workstation with drawing capability as opposed to a studio system that you can also do other types of work on.


#31

It could be sold as, say 5 prebuilt variants + 2 barebones:

  • $599 Base: i3/R3, 4K non-touch
  • $899 Value: i5/R5, GTX 1050, 4K touch
  • $1499 Gamer: i5/R5, RTX 2060, 4K touch, watercooled
  • $1499 Pro: i5/R5, GTX 1050, 5K + pen
  • $1999 Beast: i7/R7, RTX 2070, 5K + pen, watercooled

Its also possible to partner up with boutique manufacturers (Origin PC, Mifcom, etc.) so they can offer more variants, based on the barebones version.

But yeah youre right I think, any way you slice it, its a niche device.

I would against it, since most enthusiasts are against proprietary form factor. There are just too many things to worry about:

  • Will Eve even be around by 2025?
  • How long will Eve support this form factor?
  • How much will the upgrades cost, is this a vendor lock-in?
  • Will the parts that I want even be available?

As for follow-up sales, I wouldnt worry too much. For a company the size of Eve, there will always be new buyers if the products have been proven to be solid. Plus the generational upgrades would be fairly easy and cheap to upgrade (no need to develop new custom parts, therefore minimal R&D), so the return is almost pure profit.

I’d imagine this is the kind of product that will continually be sold, and upgraded for the next 5-10 years while Eve makes other laptops and tablets. As long as 4K and 5K still a thing (and desirable), this product would still be relevant.

eve doesn’t have a single engineer on its staff.

They managed to produce the V anyway. The engineers or the lack thereof is not a concern here imo.

If we built the exact same device as Microsoft for say $300 less people would still buy the Microsoft device

Definitely not $300, that’s peanuts. I am looking for $1000 since desktop parts are both cheaper and more powerful at the same time, and the display will be an off-the-shelf unit. The biggest mistake of SS (imo) is the use of mobile parts.


#33

I dont quite understand. So its a laptop like the Surface Book, but with the CPU on the laptop base? Can you give an example?


#35

these prices seem way too low, they’ed have to be double the price if you’re thinking of anything with any custom machined chassis or any decent build quality. think about how much a decent quality pc case alone costs. now extrapolate that to include a screen enclosure, the costs will add up fast. the screen in the V costs around $150-200 if I recall correctly, volume economics play a huge part in the end price, Eve will only ever order these components in batches of 500-1000 because they won’t have a high sell-through for such a unique/niche device. at those kinds of orders, parts will not be cheap. especially not quality ones.

is it possible to make devices at those cost points, maybe, but they’ll be pretty crap and probably made of crappy plastic.

I agree modularity questionable from a consumer standpoint although sellable, i meant modularity was a good idea from a business perspective, ie good for EVE’S bottom line. eve would stay around a lot longer if it had consistent repeat business which modular architectures can provide. a one time sale and nothing from that customer for the next 5 years is bad business practice. hardware margins are thin the best way to make money is volume, either large volume to different customers or large volume to the same customers, selling larger volume to the same customers is always cheaper because there is no cost of consumer acquisition (advertising etc) they’ve already bought into your ecosystem (this is why Apple is so dominant because they make ecosystems, not just devices). business wise modularity (or creating an ecosystem) makes sense.

this will not help Eve make money. hypothetically speaking if your Eve device had an access slot underneath the kickstand were you could upgrade ram and had SSD you would only buy the cheapest SKU of your preferred CPU. if you could upgrade the CPU you would buy the cheapest device full stop. if you could put in an of the shelf motherboard you’d want a barebones V (if such a thing were possible). ease of upgradability is good for the customer but its bad for business which is why no one makes readily upgradeable devices anymore. because everyone will just buy the parts themselves of amazon/ebay and eve won’t get a penny.

it is a huge concern what kind of engineering staff they have or what kind of engineering partners. propeller did the industrial design, Emdoor and their partners did the engineering / manufacturing the V is basically a surface pro 3 with a custom motherboard. it’s a known quantity. Emdoors website if full of 2in1 detachable reference designs. they don’t have a reference design for a modular or upgradable AIO because these are rather unique not generic. we can quite easily design anything we want with some pretty renders but finding someone to engineer and manufacture the thing is a whole different ball game. Tier 1 manufacturers companies like Pegatron or Foxconn work with people like the surface team to engineer devices but they must charge a fortune. Emdoor, on the other hand, has limited capability.

http://digi.emdoor.com/products.asp?typeid=52&sortid=22&nav=1

remember what i said about 2.5 times BOM. there are loads of costs that we don’t realize

*BOM costs (this is including custom housings and all the other little bits and pieces that addup)
*manufacturing fixtures/jigs/moulds etc.
*manufacturers margin (usually 10-30%BOM if i remember correctly but could be wrong)
*shipping/handling costs (there are many kinds of shipping costs, first one is buying all the components, they have to be delivered!, then freight shipping of final product.)
*storage/warehousing costs (it costs money to keep stuff in boxes)
*regulatory/certification/testing costs (each new device has to be vetted, this includes setting device aside for endurance testing, drop testing, all of which is overhead costs)
*import/export taxes
*advertising etc costs
*partner services (propeller etc)
*Eves operating costs (salaries etc)
*payment processing costs
*packaging and parceling costs
there’s probably more

the cost of the device should be very carefully considered.


#36

Hey guys, great thoughts on this thread. Glad to see people thinking about creating awesome tech again. A couple thoughts:

By definition, I don’t know that we can really call it an AIO if we have pipes flowing to/from a separate box :grin:. Still a novel idea though.

I agree with @Attiq’s general philosophy that this will be hard to do at a low cost to consumers. A device this capable will inevitably demand a higher price tag, and I don’t think Eve really has enough goodwill left to get a significant number of people to spend that much on a device (especially after the video by Unbox Therapy).

To the community at large…

Still, I think this is an inspired design (typical of @Patrick_Hermawan if I might add) , and this kind of discussion is what made the forum such an awesome place in the past. To everyone reading this thread, let’s try to support more threads like this.

No, I’m not asking you to pretend like you love Eve and they never did anything wrong if you’re still upset about delays (I haven’t gotten my refund yet either), but having discussions like this is what this community was built for and participating in constructive discussion (or at least not tanking them with super negative comments) doesn’t cost you a dime (or whatever small coin is used in your country’s sayings :wink:).


#41

No, I cannot give an example as it’s hopefully a new idea :wink:

TL;DR
Instead of putting the guts into the screen unit which is hard to remove, put them into a keyboard base and/or a Microsoft Studio hinged-deck which users can upgrade.
PRO: Allows modularity and upgradeability, multiple use-cases
CON: Can’t use unit as a tablet, size

Whereas the V is a tablet designed mostly to be used on the go but with the capability of integration into a home system, this would be the opposite; where it is designed to be a home system but still has the capability to be used with an attached keyboard.

From what I’ve seen the biggest obstacle to upgrading touch-screen units is that the components are hidden behind the screen, which is sealed by a 1K hot-melt adhesive which is a bitch and a half to remove unless you absolutely have to for service.

Therefore if we essentially have an ultra-high resolution touch screen without any computing components inside of it but instead inside of a keyboard and/or hinged docking unit it gives the ability to upgrade the device and make it modular to individual use-case.

As far as the mechanics go a Microsoft Studio hinge is simple enough to replicate and a keyboard base with an attachment scheme wouldn’t be too difficult to brainstorm.
image

(Forgive the picture, wish I had my V to draw on!!)


#42

just nope. it’s under patent on the one hand and it’s so fucking complex even big ones like lenovo (iirc they brought this Surface Studio like device to CES) couldn’t make it like this… Sorry, but I’m with Patrick. I don’t understand this device…


#43

I’m really enjoying this topic! Awesome to see some new life and discussions in the community. I also would like to ask people to keep the negative comments out of this thread. We’ve got plenty of other places to talk about things that we’re unhappy about.

In general I agree with @Attiq on the feasibility of this device. I think it’s too much, too soon and we need something that will sell in large quantities and relatively low prices. However, if Eve does chose to go down the AIO or desktop route I’m all about his modular concept.

@Patrick_Hermawan, I really think we should revisit your thoughts about a tablet. I’d love to see a good small tablet (8"ish) that could compete in the iPad Mini space or a unique “Pro” tablet that fills a power user niche.


#47

Perhaps we could use a clever combination of plastic, casted metal, and CNC metal. Not everything has to be CNC metal.

The “fixed hinge” model would have cheaper build since it is not designed for the user to continuously touching and interacting with the display unit.

Id imagine there would be a ton more userbase in the first place if we went with standard form factors. A lot of people are skeptical if manufacturers will ever create the updated parts in the future, now multiply that doubt by 10x for a small brand like Eve.

Of course the existing customers probably won’t buy new parts from Eve, but as I said, for the company the size of Eve, we won’t run out of new customers anytime soon, if the product is compelling enough. The simplistic timeline is like this:

Year 1: Hardcore Eve fans
Year 2: Tech enthusiasts who were skeptical with Eve shipping
Year 3: Tech enthusiasts who were skeptical with small brands
Year 4: Gamer and designer in general
Year 5: Surface fans

…and so on

Take Tesla for example. Their customers probably won’t buy another Model S for the next 5-7 years or so, but the hype created by that being an electric car that no one else is doing, is an advertisement by itself. If they developed ICE, they would have earned a ton more money from existing customers in engine maintenance, but the car wouldn’t be as attractive in the first place.

Good point, so would you say that the BOM cost of the V is around $300-400?

Alternatively, you can also integrate the “cooling unit” with the base, essentially by laying it flat with each other. The entire base unit would be wider, probably the full-width of the monitor much like the Lenovo A940

Thanks, that tiny sketch is all i need :slight_smile:

^ this is prime example of “a picture is worth a thousand words

So my concept above is surprisingly similar, except instead of the base being detachable from the display, it is the insides of the base that can be removed. The base (if you see it carefully in the concept) is essentially just a standard small-form-factor PC case


#48

My apologies!!
I didn’t mean to replicate the exact design of the specific Microsoft hinge, I just meant it as a generalization. As I understand it, the principle is that the “zero gravity” effect of the hinge is a result of the spring force being equal to the force of the moment arm created throughout the range of motion of the device. This makes it difficult to design as you need to know the weight of the display and its moment of inertia before you design the internals of the hinge but you can get pretty close by approximation.

I know I’m oversimplifying the design: Your weight is constant but the two lengths that define the force location vary through manipulation and change the moment arm and therefore alter the reaction force you need to overcome with hinge resistance.

^^This! I couldn’t, for the life of me, think of the term “mini PC” when I was writing the first post.

My simplified understanding of “modularity” vs. “upgrade-ability” is (respectively) options before you purchase the device vs. options after you purchase the device. Is this completely wrong?

As for the keyboard-GPU-base-thing:
I was just remembering large meetings where 1) A designer presents their drawing summary 2) Has alterations proposed 3) Disconnects in verbalization of requested changes 4) Returning with updates that aren’t quite right 5) Rinse and repeat for months :’)

A) We want the device to be up-gradable, so we cannot put many components in the display
B) We want the device to be capable and therefore require sufficient hardware

So from these I thought a portable mini-PC or a keyboard with the hardware built-in (modular or up-gradable) would be a good solution. Bring it to a meeting and do touch-ups on the spot instead of the terrible cycle of design meetings!!!

Totally agree but it never hurts to get thoughts on the table! :slight_smile: