USB-PD and V charging confusion

warranty
v

#1

Since I do not want to highjack Kazenorin’s Post I am starting a new one here:

  • I read in many posts, that other chargers than the V original charger can harm the V (mostly by over-current).

I am only talking about all the 5V technologies with the weirdest Ampere ratings. E.G. 5V@5A
That excludes Qualcom Quickcharge and other special technologies which increase the Voltage above 5V.

  • I also read that, the V charger can harm other devices (like phones) because of the over-voltage.

Here I am talking specifically about USB-PD

I read some explanations in the Internet about the used charging technologies and they state that this is not true, if the chargers are not defective (=working like specified).

Here is my summary, Sources with Quotes and Links following:
Harming the V:
“Intelligent” (e.g. Anker PowerIQ) and also “dumb-non-standard” (e.g. Samsung chargers which only support one charging protocol) chargers cannot force current into the device since they are Voltage Sources and the Current is determined by the internal resistance of the device.
As long as the charger does not increase the Voltage higher than USB standard and the device does not “ask” for more current (decreasing its own resistance after recieving a modifiing data Voltage from the charger [1]) the charger delivers exactly the current that the device wants to have.

Therefore (Not speaking about Qualcom Quickcharge and USB-PD which increase the Voltage) the anker PowerIQ and other Power adapters cannot harm the V by offering more current, sice they simply cannot force the current to flow through the device.

Qualcom Quickcharge (The only thing harmful for the V if the above is correct) would be Indicated like this on Anker products: https://www.anker.com/products/A2024111

But since the V is capable of USB-PD it should also be able to handle higher voltages [2].

That means the PowerIQ from Anker should not harm the V.

Harming other Devices with V’s USB-PD Power supply:

This simply is not possible either, because the USB-PD protocol starts at 5V@2A [2] and only increases voltage if the device demands this (different technology than the old “intelligent” chargers!).

That means, if my phone does not ask for more than 5V it does not get more.

Disclaimer:
I know that giving warranty on something is another case here and I understand that EVE says that if you use another charger you can harm your device and it is not their fault. But it should be very unlikely.

I hope @Team can solve this confusion.

Source 1: Prior charging technologies (mostly USB-A) https://electronics.stackexchange.com/a/268186

Source 2: USB-PD Standard http://www.electronicdesign.com/interconnects/introduction-usb-power-delivery http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/PD_1.0_Introduction.pdf

Backstory:
I have got an earlier version of this Charger at home with ~6 USB-A Ports and an 26Ah Battery-Pack from Anker with the same technology. I would also appreciate it to charge my phone (currently Nexus 6P) with the V charger (eliminating one charger out of my backpack).


Got questions about the V? (Q&A with Konsta & engineers)
[merged topic] Battery bank compatibility with the V
Charging the V with other chargers
10.11 Update and Warning: SPOILERS COMING SOON!
#2

Pinging the users who participated in the discussion in the other thread:
@s.auler @kazenorin @lifeblogv3


#3

This is an excellent post. I have wondered the same and I really hope someone from Eve could clarify, if the above is correct. To me it would seem odd, that the USB-standard took a step back in compatibility in this regard. Of course there could be cheap/faulty chargers that could damage any device, but that’s another story.


#4

Good Thread.

That seems to be a Problem with the V (my DVT2 only charged with ~15W with Anker PowerIQ1 - PowerPort+ 5 USB-C mit USB Power Delivery Neuxus 6, Xiaomi Air and Nintendo Switch work fine with the Charcher)


#5

If the charger is defective this is a complete other story!
Then it is your fault if you misused the charger (water, taking apart, …)
Or if the charger does not fit to the specifications, but the company is saying that it fits, then the charger company is responsible for the damage they caused.


#6

Okay that would mean it draws 5V@3A

And that should be enough power that you are able to use (not charge) your V with a Anker PowerIQ Battery-Pack.

But the Nintendo Switch should be USB-PD compatible.

USB PD also checks if the cable is certified.

I think the Question that now rises is:
Is the V (and V charger) USB-PD 100% compliant?


A few concerns & Questions - Remix OS, Design, Shipping & eGPU
#7

That is wrong… It’s explained pretty well in one of your quotes:

That is hard to tell, because if the phone doesn’t “ask” for higher voltage it won’t get it. On the other hand, non-PD devices might “miscommunicate” with the charger.


#8

There are not “USB-C PD” certified Cables, most of the USB 2/3 Cables should work: http://www.usb.org/developers/powerdelivery/PD_1.0_Introduction.pdf

I’m using this Cable: https://www.amazon.de/umgeflochtenes-Ladekabel-Datenkabel-Chromebook-unterstützte/dp/B01DG5NI1I/ref=pd_sim_147_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=XB4Q547QAZF6AEAZJ1X9


#9

Thats what the post is about. if the V can be harmed by other power adapters and I say: “No it should not happen”

The technology USB-PD uses to confirm the higher Voltage is different to the prior used technology for more Current at 5V.

The old technology uses the Data Ports.
USB-PD does not do that, therefore it is very unlikely to happen, when both devices are not defective.


#10

The problem (atleast) with USB-C is that there are lot of cables that are actually not adhering the USB-C standard by using wrong components in the cable/charger.

These can destroy devices, like what happened with the Google Engineers Chromebook which completely died because of bad USB-C cable (Benson Leung who took as his mission to test these usb-c cables)


#11

I am not talking about “USB-PD certified” cables but about somehow certified cables.

Known would therefore mean fitting to the standards = certified.

But an Aukey Cable should be good enough for that and should be compatible because it says “compatible with Nintendo Switch” which uses USB-PD.


#12

I think this is why it is exlcuded from warenty.
There are a lot of “if” and “should” in your text.
I somehow read your first post as asking for someone to remove the "if"s and "should"s.
But noone will do this.

You are right by saying there should be no harm by using a USB-PD compliant charger.
But noone can tell if this is true for each and every charger (damaged or not).

As @pauliunas ponited out non-PD devices could harm the V by “miscommunication”.

  • Charger: “How much Voltage can you take?”
  • V: “15V”
  • Charger: “OK, here is your 20V”.

#13

That was one year ago.
But this issue is now addressed even by amazon: https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-threatens-to-banish-anyone-selling-dodgy-usb-c-cables/

And therefore these defective cables should be away from the market.

BUT if they say it is USB-C compilant and it is not in reality it is not your fault, it is the fault of the manufacturer of the cable.


#14

Btw I can recommend this Page: https://plus.google.com/collection/s0Inv if you don’t know it yet


#15

That’s exactly what can lead to “miscommunication”. I was talking about Qualcomm Quickcharge and similar technologies - we don’t know what they use… On the other hand, I don’t know how exactly PD does that either, so all I can say is that while it “shouldn’t” happen, it “might” happen. You probably know more about it, though.


#16

A non-PD charger does not increase the voltage as far as I know, it only offers more current for the device.

I am not talking about Qualcom Quickcharge here!

That would be a faulty charger per definition…

And the communication goes in the other direction:
Voltage driven technology (USB-PD):

  • charger: “here you have got 5V@2A”
  • V: “Give me higher Voltage”
  • charger: “Here you go increasing to 15V”

The phone would not ask for the Voltage.

Current driven technology:

  • charger: “I’m the original Apple charger. I offer you 3A”
  • V does not take the current because of internal resistance
  • Phone does decrease internal resistance and uses the higher current

#17

No no, I meant something more like…

V: "hi, I’m Eve V"
Qualcomm charger: “OK here’s your 15V”

A Qualcomm charger might read the message in a totally messed up way because it expects a totally different way of communication. Qualcomm is just an example, there are other manufacturers with their own charging standards.


#18

Since every charger has written the Voltage on it we can easily distuingish if the charger supports “over-volting”.
If that is not the case, than the V cannot be harmed because it gets delivered 5V (which has to be okay) and 5V divided by V’s Internal Resistance in Ohms Ampere.

The internal resistance is chosen by each device itself. Therefore not the 5V@5A charger would kill the V, the V would kill itself and EVERY charger which is 5V@2A because you take more Power out of the charger than it can deliver! (Ampere is max Ampere on chargers with fixed Voltage)

If you go with another “over-volting” technology than USB-PD than you can really kill your V! But this would be Quoted on the charger!


#19

That is absolutely right. I was talking about Quickcharge or similar chargers that use higher voltages.


#20

Exactly! I am only talking about all the 5V technologies with the weirdest Ampere ratings.
Not about any other over-volting.

I will edit my post above to make this clear.