Initial design directions for our new 2-in-1

As far as i can summarize this thing at this stage, a 360° Laptop is not the same as a 2in1. The V is an 2in1 and even the V"2" should and will stay a 2in1. All of the 5 ideas show a tablet AND a tablet with keyboard. This leads me to be quite sure that the keyboard will be removable.

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THE PEN MUST HAVE AN ERASER! Nothing irks me more then having to switch back and forth through software or a hard to use/find button when I want to erase something while drawing. One thin the surface absolutely got right, you flip the PEN around and use the “eraser” side to erase. Simple, intuitive, smart. There should also be a spot to store the PEN that is secure maybe under a cover ( like behind the kickstand or inside the keyboard cover ) and this spot must also charge the damn thing! Really who wants an apple pencil situation :roll_eyes:.

In terms of the design ideas I like the boosted keyboard idea best. That design just has so much potential.

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I don’t think foldables are ready for prime-time just yet. They haven’t proven to be superior in any way, reliability is still something to wait and see, and there are more issues with it. We’ll get there, and it’s cool that companies like LG, Samsung and Motorola are testing out prototypes and even selling it. But I wouldn’t recommend a foldable as a daily driver for anyone.

As for the CPU:
We should get the most powerful and energy efficient one. I’m not at home in the mobile CPU market (I’m a desktop man :wink: ). So whether it’ll be AMD, Intel or something else. And Zen 2, Zen 3, Icelake, Tigerlake or Lakefield. It doesn’t matter. The device will have a TDP limit due to no fans (i don’t think a fanned 2-in-1 is what people want). So we should choose between those CPU’s and I haven’t seen reliable tests for those.

Lastly the charging: There have been some attempts to true wireless charging (not Qi charging mats). And while cool in principle the adoption of it is to thin. The health effects of wireless power in such short ranges are not really known (possible issue), but most importantly, it won’t be able to charge your device while you’re working. It’ll slow down the battery drain since it’s charging all the time. But that is also bad for battery.

As for the battery tech. There are a multitude of interesting battery tech out there. But it’s sometimes hard to read through the marketing. What I’ve found is that almost every battery tech has drawbacks they don’t openly disclose. That’s understandable but makes it hard to make an informed decision. Also: not every battery tech is capable to drive a computing device like the V.

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I’m very strongly against being dependent on the keyboard that ships with the machine, because I want to design my own. Thus having the same bluetooth + pogo-pin connections available (with the same pinout, and this time make sure it’s open and documented!) is important to me. This rules out the boosted keyboard concept. My own keyboard might be “boosted” (that should be up to me), but please do not cripple the tablet in case it’s disconnected from the keyboard.

Given that I want to design my own keyboard, it would be nice to have a good way of attaching it. The best tablet mechanical design I’ve used so far was the first-gen Thinkpad Helix from around 2013 or so: the keyboard has a wonderful hinge that holds the tablet portion rigidly like a laptop, and yet the tablet portion can be removed and used independently too. I googled for an image and found www aliexpress com/item/32903732357.html But that’s mechanically complex, and I don’t think it’s practical for third-party keyboards to be designed that way. (Although, with enough design work, maybe I or someone could come up with something that works just as well, but is simpler.)

So maybe the easiest mechanical option is the folio design: I can make my own keyboard with pogo pins a few cm down from the top, and somehow prop up the machine on the backside. What I don’t like about that is it tends to fix the angle between the keyboard and screen to just one angle; and it takes away some vertical space on the keyboard part.

Another mechanical design option is something like a 4-bar mechanism, like the GridPad 2260 or the Nokia N950: the touchscreen is stowed facing upwards so that you can use it without unfolding the keyboard. To use the keyboard, you lift the touchscreen upwards, and it pivots back in such a way that it goes into a laptop-like orientation: https://www.sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=penexec (please ignore how chunky that machine is; the folding mechanism can be implemented compactly) http://phonesdata.com/en/smartphones/nokia/n950-834/ It has the same disadvantages as the folio design, but the advantages are that the keyboard is firmly connected as on a laptop, but doesn’t get in the way when it’s folded. The trick is to design it so that it’s also removable! That’s never been done AFAIK. The tablet portion would need to have some sort of attachment mechansim to hold the keyboard and its folding mechanism. Probably magnets in the right places would work fine: either on the sides, or on the back. Or perhaps tiny t-slots running down the sides of the tablet, which would allow attaching other kinds of accessories too.

I’m very strongly in favor of having an increased heatsink surface area for best fanless heat dissipation. Yes it can and should have a cool-looking design! Something like lego bumps in a hexagonal pattern, maybe?

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Surfacebook has the most optimal design - the extra battery/gpu in the keyboard makes it such a powerful device and while maintaining a sleek look when in tablet mode.

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Thinking about the idea of having a “cooling addon” or heatsink in the back for the BETTER UP concept, I remembered the Airtop 3, the most powerful passively cooled computer out there.

It uses a series of vertical and closed metal cells that leverage convection to create a constant flow of air (see reference image to the right below).

Maybe the V could use its shape to achieve the same effect:

Pros:

  • A powerful yet passively cooled tablet.
  • The cooling latches would be hidden, and only a flat surface would face the outside, making it nicer to grab and cleaner to the eye.
  • The stand and the cooling solution could integrate well, giving a flat and minimal appearance from the outside. And the stand could even contribute to the “chimney effect”, channeling the air.

Cons:

  • Probably the channels would need a certain minimum width to allow convection, so this would add quite some bulk (and some weight) to the tablet.
  • It would only work in landscape mode, but that’s probably the one you’d use if you wanted to run some power hungry applications.
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I’ve been thinking about cooling too. I want a more powerful tablet which means more cooling capacity is needed. I also want to be able to use my device outside so the device internals need to be sealed. A design that can achieve both is what I really want to see. That Airtop design is pretty neat as it looks like it’s closed loop.

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It’s actually more like “open loop”, actually. The airflow happens only on the outside of the device, and the interior remains closed so the dust doesn’t get in. It’s designed for industrial settings.

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For me the perfect form factor is a mix of the Asus T1000 Transformer and the Microsoft Surface Book. 90% of my usage of a 2 in 1 device happens in laptop mode. I’ve had tablet first devices (like the Microsoft Surface Pro) that work great in tablet mode, or on a desk, but fail when you try and use them on your lap. Having a sturdy mechanical hinge is fantastic, which is why I currently use a laptop convertible (Lenovo Yoga C630 WOS). It meets most of my needs, but would be better if I could detach the keyboard for the 10% of the time I’m taking written notes, just need the tablet portion, or when reducing the weight would be handy. I don’t see why you couldn’t do an “extended battery mechanical hinge” keyboard as an option, along with the standard floppy hinge lightweight keyboard. Just my 2c though.

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That’s what I was referring to. In domestic heating/cooling systems that’s a closed loop. The internally circulating air or water never touches the outside evironment and transfers heat through exhangers.

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The hinge of the Surface Book is an engineering masterpiece. I didn’t see any copies of it from Chinese copycats… So it really had to be special. Eve hasn’t the engineering power to make such a hinge. Even the kickstand hinge of the V is a diesel tractor against the tesla hinge of the SP7 kickstand…

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There is a interessting Alternative from Porsche Design

You can also rotelate 360 degrees

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=5WUTsn5F&id=3A5396D1347152AEA6CB365F382FDA7B0BF5AE67&thid=OIP.5WUTsn5FO8mtUc0ESd1h2wHaE6&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fthumbor%2FruSbxQYihTYdRsWJJO489YamSeg%3D%2F0x0%3A1510x1000%2F1200x0%2Ffilters%3Afocal(0x0%3A1510x1000)%3Ano_upscale()%2Fcdn.vox-cdn.com%2Fuploads%2Fchorus_asset%2Ffile%2F8060203%2Ftwarren-porschedesignbookone-23.0.jpg&exph=795&expw=1200&q=porsche+design+book+one&simid=608008094059528999&selectedindex=0&pc=EMMX20&adlt=demote&shtp=GetUrl&shid=763fb787-a86a-4fab-8499-370ba6d43edb&shtk=UG9yc2NoZSBEZXNpZ24gQm9vayBPbmUgcmV2aWV3OiBhIGxhcHRvcCB0aGF0IG5lZWRzIGEgcGl0IC4uLg%3D%3D&shdk=QXVmIEJpbmcgdm9uIHd3dy50aGV2ZXJnZS5jb20gZ2VmdW5kZW4%3D&shhk=Yt8%2FLlGD%2BNDNuN0n%2Fi94LltiCD59G9oIV5%2BbdGgQXq0%3D&form=EX0023&shth=OSH.r3kWmsxqqXgRZPqNEzU8NA

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I travel with an e-Reader, an iPhone, and a laptop every week. I look at all three devices and ask “Why can’t I have ONE device that replaces them ALL?” I want the ultimate convergence device - as light and elegant as an iPad Pro but with a desktop-class operating system; a device that I can carry all day for work yet still works great for reading a book or watching a movie later in the day.

The device absolutely must be capable of running Linux.
The device must have some type of audio / video output (e.g. HDMI)
The device must have a user-replaceable battery.
The device should use USB-C for charging and data exchange.
The device should have the latest Bluetooth and WiFi standards.
The device could have NFC.
The device should make Apple realize that they’ve become complacent with their designs. :wink:

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but the V pen has an eraser, too… I use it all the time, it is one of the 2 bottons…


JUST now I saw that BEFORE coming to the forum again… I want it :smiley: but don’t know how stable it will be…

If anyone is interested, I’ve designed a concept design that may provide some idea of what the Eve V 2.0 should look like and what features it should include. Here’s the link: https://eve.community/t/eve-v-2-0-concept-design/20581/34

It should definitely have GPS and LTE :slight_smile:

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My three design choices: the Powerhouse, Workhorse, & the Better Up.

As an Eve V “investor” from day one on Indiegogo, my biggest gripe was with the hardware specs. Even with an i7, I’ve felt over the years that the CPU is holding this machine back from lasting longer for me. In addition: the fingerprint reader/power button had some funky issues with reading fingerprints very soon after launch.

Otherwise, I’ve been pretty satisfied with my device, but again, I wish it had more power and workhorse capabilities. This is where I’m hoping the new 2-in-1 goes with in regards to its direction.

One more thing: another option for the keyboard would be nice; the alacantra cloth is nice, but a high-end plastic option would be good too. The cloth one gets dirty way too easily and I keep having to clean it (and an oleo-phobic trackpad for all those dang finger oils).

Can’t wait to hear more!


@Techmo Wow, nice work there!

@Konstantinos, I would definitely want you and the team to take a look at @Techmo’s design for ideas at least.

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I definitely think that having 2 thunderbolt ports would be ideal. I would like an ethernet port, but understand that a slim form factor is often contrary to high performance needs. That being said, anything to make the thing as powerful as possible, in the form factor, for high-CPU activities with pretty damn good GPU performance will always be my big two needs. Easy port expansion too for all my peripherals when coming back home from the wild, wild world.

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This may be of some help for your intelligence concerns:
You are not dumber than I am :thinking: :laughing:

Light weight is super important if you take your computer with you a lot (like commuting to work). I think the magic number is around 1 kg tops, and as light as possible for the tablet portion. You can carry a 1 kg computer around without it making your bag heavy all by itself. If the screen is small enough that you may have to lift it up to look at something small, I have low vision, so that’s all the time for me. I tend to hold the tablet like a book, rather than set it on a surface. My Surface Pro is on the heavy side for that.

An OLED screen will have lower power consumption if used in dark mode. LCDs always use the same amount of power even if they are showing all black pixels. I think OLEDs are also thinner and lighter than LCDs these days.

The only thing I really hate about my Surface Pro 3 is the fan. I HATE FANS. DEATH TO FANS!!! (I feel better now). A fanless design would be great, as long as the heat sink doesn’t burn my thighs. Is that still a problem with portable computers? My wife uses her Surface Pro sitting on a pillow in her lap. Don’t want the fins or vents to be underneath if you’re using it on a squishy surface that might block them.

I often use my Surface Pro connected to a full-size keyboard and monitor. I really like the Surface Pro power connector that (1) works in either orientation, (2) has a magnetic latch, and (3) leads out signals for an external dock with lots of ports. The dock makes up for having a limited number of ports on the computer and makes it easy to remove the computer, like to go to meetings.

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