How can we improve community development before Eve Dock's crowd development is kicked off

survey
official

#1

Hello Community!

Thank you all for participating in the previous discussion about the Eve Dock!

Let’s begin!

We had a short workshop with @Xinjie and Dario today to discuss how dock will be developed.
We realized that Eve Dock project is an awesome opportunity to refine communnity development process. We can make it more organized and transparent.

The purpose of this post is to discuss with you how can the community development process be improved.

We know that we have a lot of super smart dudes the community. Essentially you have to answer few questions and describe how you see perfect community development process.

So for example your post could be along the lines of:

1. In the past project development I liked:

2. In the past project development i disliked:

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

Please keep your messages to the point. Any extra comments will be removed so that we can focus on actual feedback

So here is an example:

1. In the past project development I liked:

I really loved how the Pains and Painkillers thread worked out. It provided very concrete use cases allowing for a very good understanding of why people would like to have a device like Eve V

https://eve.community/t/you-have-pains-head-bandage-we-have-a-painkillers-pill-use-cases-for-the-mega-thread/1072?source_topic_id=9893

2. In the past project development i disliked:

I really disliked the fact that big picture was missing during the development. In other words it wasn’t clear what exactly are we making and why are we making it. As a result it was very hard to set design targets as well as engineering targets. Only after the development we realized that V is all about the battery life, great display, portability and all you need performance.

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

Dario created this flow based on few workshops our team had together. This flow focuses on first understanding What, For Whom, And Why are we making something.

Make sure to tell your thoughts about the process below!


You can get the higher res picture here: https://eve-techoy.box.com/s/dmjzb6mfdxxu5hg1yxqj8i64b1rd714v


And of course as always, let’s agree on the most important thing! Code-name for Dock Project (it doesn’t have to be super serious as when it goes on sale it will be called differently. This is our internal and community nickname for the project. )

How should we code-name the Eve Dock project?

  • Donald Dock
  • Portimus Prime
  • Port Prime
  • Eve Dock 2019
  • Project Harbor
  • Chasity Vlock
  • Docking Bay 94
  • The Eve Base
  • V Mega
  • Adam D
  • Eve D
  • E Pod

0 voters

Thanks for all of your creative name suggestions :smile:


Key learnings on community development process. Part 2!
#2

1. In the past project development I liked:

loved Pains and Painkillers thread too. That was one of the most important threads of the whole project, for me, personally this gave the big picture understanding I felt I needed so props @Konstantinos for putting it out :slight_smile:

Loved the CPU debates (yes, all of them) too as we went very deep together, investigating all the sides to it and eventually decided to go couragely with Y series CPU against the trend at that time! First time the community arranged a re-vote on its own too haha :smiley:

Lastly, cannot over-emphasize the importance of discussion rounds before voting.

Many people here could come to mutual understanding on basis of reason. Without discussion, what chances do 4000+ people have on agreeing on stuff :stuck_out_tongue:

2. In the past project development i disliked:

Some of the features came out from us in an incoherent order, which caused some confusion.

Off-topics of off-topics that made us read so many messages unrelated to a spec or a feature :smiley:

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

Interested in seeing what you guys say :baby:


#3
  1. In the past project development I liked:
  • all those awesome ideas community members came up. Really, most discussions about features and possible improvements were so full of cool ideas, and I’m sure most companies will never have that, because in most companies the marketing seems to decide how a device looks and which features it gets.
  • The result obviously. The V will certainly rock. And even one year after Indiegogo three still is no other device that is better (for my use cases).
  • All the openness and the information you gave us. No other tech company in the world is as open. Please, continue like this. Or be even more open.
  • Konstas sweater videos. What were they about with regards to content…? I can only remember those colors :yum:
  1. In the past project development i disliked:
  • Many things were not discussed at all and after the community asked a lot of questions it was already to late, examples: fn lock LED, keyboard prints/functions. There were a lot of really awesome ideas that I saw, but since the development was already finished and couldn’t be changed anymore, those ideas and the potential of the community were lost.
  • The answers one can get can only be as good as the questions we ask. Maybe there should already be a lot of input facts about pro and contra that can guide the discussion, without answering it of course. And maybe the final poll should only be done after a lot of discussions. Never with one poll, I’m thinking about the cameras here.
  • sometimes information was very slow/late.

That’s it for now, will add more when my brain decides that it’s time.


#4

1. In the past project development I liked:

  • How in most threads we could reach into consensus.
  • How anyone could make their own thread to develop any part that he/she thought could be further discussed.
  • The amount of input (and the quality of some of it). There were many great ideas.
  • How the community was especially in the beginning (We were not many active so it was reaply heart-warming and close-nit. It was like a family throughout the world. Now it’s quite more impersonal in my honest opinion.)
  • How the Pyramid Flipper came out to be.
  • How friendly and helpful Eve’s team was, specially in the beginning (since the community was smaller it was far easier to manage I reckon).

2. In the past project development i disliked:

  • In was in general a mess. Since each person could start a thread, things that had been discussed or were going to be discussed afterwards were being posted. There wasn’t also a coherent timeline. Features were being discussed I guess very separated (like one then another without seeing the whole picture as Konstantinos mentioned)
  • Towards the end, it felt as if many of the comments were similar and shared the same opinion, cluttering and wasting community readers/eve team valuable time.
  • Many times discussions went to topics that weren’t the goal of that thread.
  • Time management/Time schedules/Time estimates weren’t set very well.
  • Many times, threads which had already conclusions posted were approached again which led many times to a loss of awareness on what the stage of the project was.
  • A couple times, there was a need to inform more the people so the polls were more meaningful.
  • Some times, a couple users overloaded threads with their comments and that caused the wrong impression that their opinion was the most agreed upon.

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

I like the process you posted but I have some comments on it;

  • Things like the priority tower should be available when possible so people can comment on those (in the appropriate thread if necessary)
  • There should be a thread to show the complete roadmap, even if they’re just estimates. Having the steps that the project is taking (more than just saying EVT for example as that is quite broad). That thread would be only posted by Eve team members and it would be updated every time new information were to change it. This way, you would be surprised that feature threads don’t start to appear out of nowhere. This thread would be pinned globally at all times. And independent of the Project Status one!
  • Have a system that to post in the development category for example, a moderator would have to approve your thread, so that you don’t confuse others and stick to the roadmap.
  • Separation of off-topic and on-topic threads could be made more visible.
  • It is necessary to find a way to make discussions shorter, but maintaining or increasing the useful content (ideas etc). Many times there were posts that just said messages that with the like button would have been delivered.
  • It is important also to make adjustments so that new members understand how the community functions (the easier you make the transition, the more users you will retain). I remember that I was completely lost when I first entered and I have no reason to believe it has changed much. A brief explanation in the introduction message of the categories and which are the most important threads (to not lose track of where is and what the project is going to be like). If I remember correctly, the only thing that is mentioned currently is the Community Digest.

If I remember anything more I’ll be sure to post but in general I believe this is my general perspective of how things went!


#5

Sorry I don’t have much to write, but:

2. In the past project development i disliked:

Sometimes people weren’t well informed before making a poll and the same poll was repeated multiple times, or the argumentation of the decision wasn’t very clear. The most obvious example would be CPU - whenever the community has to make a decision that will heavily impact the final product’s performance, they should be presented with rock-hard numbers, statistics that show how the options relate to each other, and real world examples. IMO there’s not much worse that can happen than having users vote for something they don’t understand.

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

Maybe a when you have to ask the community to make a decision, you should have a lead-in discussion before making a poll. Giving people the ability to vote just like that, without being well informed, is evil. We have real world examples ofthat, but let’s stay on topic. I would suggest allowing people to discuss for a couple days and give their opinion, then maybe extract the main points (the forum does a pretty good job making a summary of any thread - it selects posts with the most likes and shows them, so the team would only need to click that button and write down the ideas shown in those most popular posts). And only then make a poll thread, including the things that were just written down.
Another way would be for team to do the research themselves and try to find very objective ways of comparing the options, and clearly present them to the community prior to the polls. But I think that’s a lot of work and all the brains of the community can be more efficient than that and find even more info.


#7

Lets see…


1. In the past project development I liked:
When comunity suggestions where discarded, the Eve team explained the reasoning behind, Too expensive, Tech no yet there, etc.


2. In the past project development i disliked:
Lack of a central place where to find all the information on the current status of the development process.


3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:
Schedule a time for asking questions and announce it in advance to make sure as many community members can participate, ask the scheduled day, evaluate, choose viable options, schedule another poll explaining why those candidates where chosen, repeat.


#8

Maybe have a dedicated thread where sources for background information on different (technical) aspects are collected.
This would it make easier for interested people to read up, instead of having to go on a google chase, maybe missing high quality and/or beginner friendly explanations.


#9

I think what has been missing is some sort of overview thread, so anyone can be up to date quick - Having a structure like:

  • Tasks:

    • Polling necessity of ports
    • Polling for Dimensions
  • Open Questions:

    • Dimensions:
    • Ports:
  • Results:

    • Focussing on a small travel dock including a battery pack (Link to discussing thread)
      • Most people voted to include a battery that can charge your V twice (Link to poll)

I think you get the idea.


#10

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

  • On the poll threads, sometimes the result might not be the best. For example if you have 3 options, A,B, C, and A is the most voted, A would win in the current system. However, people that voted on B and C might hate option A, which then would make the result not that representative of the overall opinion. Therefore, we could have, in addition to the ‘best option’ polls, rating/number polls and even multiple-choice polls like we had with the naming of the V. This way, you could ensure more people would be happy with the conclusions and decisions.

#11

1. In the past project development I liked:

  • The idea itself of a community developed device
  • Openness from eve-team regarding (nearly) all matters
  • The possibility to follow the process to develop the device
  • To get the information why the decisions regarding hardware/software were made
  • The possibility to just share your ideas and get a bunch of information from other members
  • The “discussion-culture” (most of the time it’s pretty friendly around here)
  • Obviously the great result :wink:

2. In the past project development i disliked:

  • Multiple threads with the same topic
  • Already answered questions were posted repeatedly
  • Missing a structure (like @jan) suggested
  • Off-topic discussions made some threads poorly overseeable
  • Information were distributed over several posts and threads

3. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:

  • Try to define a roadmap at the beginning and work (if possible) step by step forward
  • Establish a rigid structure for the threads
  • The starting post for a poll should have a huge load of information and should be complemented with new information as soon as there is any.
  • first announce a poll and point out the topic and possible answers - then let the discussions start. After that the poll gets online and we can vote.
  • Declare off-topic and on-topic posts more obviously
  • It should be checked, if the topic of a new thread is already covered in an old one before it gets online

#12

My suggestion is just one rule: absolute majority. Maybe something like the french presidential election system: first round everybody can be elected. Second round they delete the options with no chance to get the absolute majority and vote again. In the end (maybe 3rounds needed) only the option with more than 50% could win.


#13

That system would make the voting system and decision making really cumbersome and lengthy, more than it already is/was. Having those two kinds of polls - ‘best option’ and ‘rating’ - would tackle the problem without any inconvenience :slight_smile: in the end you could, however, do a poll with the option that got most votes and the one with highest rating :wink:


#14

3 rounds? Never heard about that… Over here they pick the best 2 in 1st round and then only one of them can possibly get over 50% in 2nd round…
(sorry for offtopic, getting back on topic now)

I think both ideas are good. @fanoftech4life’s suggestion is pretty much how parliamentary elections work here - you list the top 5 or so candidates in the order you want. You don’t even need a “best option” poll then, because naturally, “best option” would get rated as number 1.


#15

Agreed! I really like the “ranked voting” concept. I’m sure it takes more setup work on the back end to implement it properly but the end result is awesome and it helps people deal with the gray areas when they are voting.

Off-topic…I wish the US would figure this out already and dump our lame 2 party system!


#16

As far as polls go, I like the idea of having two rounds, first with all the options, second a runoff between the top two. It’s simple, should produce the one the community actually wants, and as hopefully having a little extra time between the two polls will help the community be better educated on the options, a problem which has been discussed before.

Also, for all those who said some sort of overview/project status thread would be nice, I would agree. I actually think the current V | Revolution starts with you thread is a pretty good example of this, though obviously it would be might need to be tweaked a little for a project that is undergoing development.


#17

A few thoughts on the polling system. I agree it needs work, and the simple majority method we have been using isn’t ideal. There are a few things we need to consider.

  1. Even a simple 2 option poll does not always give is a clear picture. What if people are truly indifferent? By nature, many of them will still just pick a side, and the resulting numbers will have an increased margin of error as a result. Offering a 3rd “indifferent” option gives people the satisfaction of voting without skewing the results.

  2. Downvoting does not work in my opinion. Let’s say there are 3 options, (A, B, C) and your favourite is A and least favourite is C. However, you know C is not likely to win, and suspect B will overtake your favoured A. So you downvote B. It’s not the “right” thing to do, but people will do it, just to ensure their favourite A wins. Now, you can say “yes! But a B voter can downvote A!” And you would be correct. And if enough people do that you know what happens? The least favoured C wins.

  3. We need to differentiate between “official” polls and community generated polls. (Even if just in the subject /title)

  4. I agree we need more information and discussion before the actual polling starts. An uneducated vote is a waste.

So I think a multi phased voting system is best. The primaries, where every choice is given, then one where only the top vote getters are voted on. That may mean more than 2 options, and in extreme cases, we may need another round. I suspect something like “what screen resolution” may take a few rounds as there are so many similar options.
Edit: oh! And important polls should never be nested under another poll. (In the comments I mean) each round should get it’s own thread to ensure nothing is lost.


#18

And I’d like to add that it is the freedom of Eve to act differently from the poll results if they come to another conclusion. It would be good if they give a good reasoning why they deviated but I thing everyone from the community should be aware of this.

BTW: I have not opened an own answer because I was not involved in the debates/development decisions around the Pyramid Flipper.
I think it might be better to open separate threads to discuss the arguments given by those presenting their ideas to the original question?


#19

fully agree, else you end up with a dog’s mess! i like the idea of the community giving lots of input and steering on what they want, but in the end it needs to hang together so some kind of executive override must be at the eve team’s disposal. none of this “you broke your promise” or “you didn’t do what we want” heckling is needed.


#20
  1. In the past project development i disliked:
  • repeated discussion on already decided points
  • missing structure in the forum system leading to jumping between topics when trying to stay informed of everything
  • business based decisions that are brought up late in a running discussion, rendering everyones thoughts useless
  1. In my opinion perfect community development process should be like:
  • there need to be a public available roadmap with milestones and rough timeframes
  • announce the phase, the project is currently in right at the top of the page with a deadline, when the next phase is reached. This helps everyone to plan before and accept it when coming to late to a certain design step
  • decisions (polls) may only be made when the team has checked the possibility of fulfilling the wished points

#21

Is the French election system really a convicting example ? :thinking: