Hire a proper PM with an industry recognised qualification


#45

I agree with you wholeheartedly here – you don’t badmouth your own project, at least publicly. I was referring more to the community (not the team) when I said ‘blind optimism’. My point was that I have seen a lot of angry community members ignored and discredited only because they said something negative, as if their opinions only mattered if they had something positive to say. Whether or not you agree with the points that person made is besides the point; what matters is that they are heard and taken seriously.

For example, take what @Attiq posted later on. I think he makes some good points – it IS a miracle that the V came to fruition at all and I am grateful that it did. It’s also true that a PM can only be as good as his information. But still, the overarching tone is dismissal of the OP’s feelings and position. It is dismissal of the OP’s very right to even express himself negatively. It is this treatment of angry community members that I want to stop, because like it or not, they have the right to make their feelings known on this forum as much as any happy community member does. Last time I checked, being positive and optimistic all the time was not a prerequisite to joining the community.

Anyway, in answer to your question regarding the delays being unavoidable… I’m honestly not sure. If the delays were 100% outside Eve’s control, and Eve was 100% forthcoming about each delay, I think that I personally would feel differently, though I would still defend other community members’ rights to express their anger and frustration.


#46

I’m sorry if it came across as me being dismissive of some VIEWS that wasn’t my intention. I have no issues with anyone views …anywhere. Everyone is entitled to their view and beliefs. That does not however then give them the right to offend …

I may be old fashioned but this doesn’t sit well with me.

Add to that the fact the OP doesn’t make cogent arguments makes it hard for me to follow his line of reasoning and therefore agree with him/her. For example this doesn’t make any logical sense

But that’s besides the point …I’m a perfectly agreeable person if you make sensible arguments. For example. I have sided strongly with the community on the grounds the Eve needs a better communications policy/ strategy and they are in the process of putting that in place.

But it vexes me when people make it personal and to add to that having nothing meaningful to contribute in terms of making things better and no hiring a ‘better’ PM doesn’t count.


#47

I find this a strange argument. As a startup, that is only starting it’s first real product (considering t1 as a kind of mockup, with all due respect), I would not expect less. In some companies, not matter size some other companies do also so. In my company (multi-billion sales) even VP needs to take economy (never asked my CEO, but as a good Japanese company, I would not be too surprised if he does).

Nevertheless it is their decision to do one way or another and this does not affect, I think, the delivery of my V, so I just don’t care. :wink:


#48

Very well spoken mate,


#49

May be not that clearly expressed, but it tented to underline their mind set, not their trip. :blush:


#50

It’s not about being able to afford it… I’d rather say they can’t afford it to NOT have one!

Or in other words: A good PM is not a cost for the company, on the contrary, (s)he saves costs!


#51

Ultimatly yeah, having a good PM saves costs. But that isn’t the initial price to pay. I’ll rephrase

Can Eve afford it now to hire a good PM, and does it add enough value over the current solution?
And of course, how long will it take to see a ROI?


#52

Oh hey, those are good questions and i would be really interested to hear a professional point of view on that.

my instinct would be to say that i don’t think they have a position for such a person at this moment, but i might be underestimating their skillset.

And this illustrates why i think it’ll be difficult for them right now: as a startup, their goal is to make money - a PM can’t help them save money if there isn’t money in the first place.

Its a dilemma you see a lot with small / growing businesses lol.


#53

There is something more valuable than money: reputation. By constant mismanagement and complete lack of risk analysis & management EVE is gradually loosing much of the positive PR they managed to generate for themselves and their product. EVE should remember that all the negativity generated by delays, damaged devices and disappointment with the device itself will spill onto the Internet hurting future sales.

That capital was strong. Note that most of backers actually accepted a long delay caused by the change of screen - yet what followed was more delays & mishaps, seemingly not causing any significant change in upbeat ‘hope management’ resulting in a stream of broken promises and too optimistic forecasts. By now there is no other feasible explanation but lack of proper management in this project as well as no experience with trading with China.

They should have gotten their act together after the screen debacle, but clearly they did not… so the OP @Joe_Nixon has a very good, strong point.

(And BTW - by now I am seriously pissed off. If the device I get will fall short of my expectations I will do all I can to ensure as many people as possible learn about it and avoid it. And I don’t need it that desperately, I can afford to order myself a Surface Pro if I want to etc. - so I can only imagine how pissed off are those who actually need the device and have no money to just order something else. I am sure they will also share their experience with others.)


#54

Yeah , i totally understand what you’re getting at - what i don’t agree with in that statement is just the scale of the fallout. i don’t think its that bad, but no doubt so much of this could have been avoided, and they just kept coming one after the other again and again, i don’t know, i was just in disbelief that so many things could go wrong.

And to be honest that is largely why i don’t hold any ill will toward the eve team - I just imagine if i were them and i got that crazy IGG crowdfunding, made it to computex with all the media attention all happening like a dream - and when the thing with the screens happened, i can absolutely understand that the team could have thought they’d been through the worst of it lol.

i bet they genuinely thought nothing worse could happen. i mean, i know ‘we didn’t expect it’ is not a valid answer at all and i’m not saying that we shouldn’t hold then to account because they’re inexperienced, I’m just saying i can’t be pissed off at them because its just so bizarre all this happening, i honestly can’t say i would have handled it better.

i mean like when the HEBs started receiving their Vs and some of them were so badly messed up i was literaly like “really, is everything that can go wrong really going to go wrong omg”

i swear i had this thought “okay at least they can’t mess up the shipping too badly, worst case they reach people late right?”


#55

There are two things I’d like to quickly add to this conversation.

  1. So many of the issues we are seeing in the product are a direct result of 4px mishandling the devices, or are software/driver issues that are being addressed. It makes it seem like there are far more actual hardware (Eve fault) issues. Yes, there are some loose usbs and weird keyboard issues, but they really do seem to be in the minority (that doesn’t make them any less of an issue though)

  2. While Eve has been fairly transparent with the process, I can say with about 99% certainty that we do NOT know everything. To stand here and judge how they made decisions and why they made them is just a little presumptuous. I’m not saying mistakes were not made, but what I am saying is that every decision Eve made, they made because they thought it was best. Best for us, and best for them. Only they know all the details that lead to these decisions, so let’s not pretend to be experts about the business of Eve.


#56

Not for a business there isn’t. Everything, literally everything a business does is for money, or it’s a bad business. All things that you might consider important such as reputation, design and even community is purely marketing designed to promote it’s products so it can get more money.
The board, CEO or other managing team/person might consider those or other things important as well. But if a business was an organism, money would be it’s oxygen.

I think you have more information then anyone else. Because I can still see a lot of other options. It’s a possibility that it’s mismanagement, it’s feasible even, but it’s not the only option.

If you are any kind of supporter of this idea, which I believe you are since you actually bought the V even though you don’t need it, can you give some feedback on how to improve it so it won’t happen again? Don’t say “No more delays!” because delays are inevitable when they are this open towards the community. Apple and Microsoft and the like don’t have a community like this. They also have delays you just have no idea about them.
But reading the rest of the comment you’ve made up your mind.

@Wickedly Maybe we should change Murphy’s law to Eve’s law :stuck_out_tongue:


#57

Sorry, but this is not true. We have a lot of businesses that are either community-driven or non-profit or do have a social mission. To name two examples: cooperatives and private non-profit universities

And we have a lot of businesses, CEOs and so forth that want - by their heart - to do their business social responsible.


#58

And those will die without money. How it gets money, how it spends money, that’s up to the business. It still needs money to survive. It’s not the business heart to want social responsibility, it’s a tool to get more money, be it genuine or not. When you look hard enough. Everything you might perceive as a potential benefit to society being done by a business, is a business decision. Even Eve, with it’s community development, is business designed to drive more money towards Eve.

Don’t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that. The team here might really want to have a community that builds stuff, for the sake of a community. A non-profit university might really want just educate people, just to get more smarter people. But you can’t expect either of those to do it without money. They need to get money, for maintenance and for improvement, thus future-proofing. We don’t live in a post-scarcity society (yet) so money will be the driving force behind every business decision. Even if it’s just “can we afford it”.


#59

Your claim was that nothing is more valuable than money for a business. And I do think that this claim is wrong. Money is of course necessary but there are enough businesses that do not want to drag more money to themselves but are eager to keep a balance between surviving (asking enough money to exist) and social responsibility. So I claim that it depends on the business and its founders/stakeholders if they rate money more than social responsibility.


#60

This still includes money as the primary decision maker. When talking income (for business) the question is never how much will something cost. It’s how much are people willing to spend. When it comes down to the zero point business model, a company like Apple or Google is the exact same as every non-profit ever. And everything in between. Get money so things can continue and grow. The perception changes however. It’s ethical for Apple to ask more money then they need because, it’s a business and doesn’t directly violate any real ethical lines (i know about factory workers, but people still buy Apple products by large). If an education asks more money because it’s board wants to earn more, then it’s suddenly less ethical. Not to mention charities who mostly rely on donations.

It really doesn’t matter what kind of business you run. If it requires time, it runs on money. But you can do a lot of things with money, and what part deserves more time or more money is what gives a business it’s identity. This identity is then used as a marketing tool to promote itself, get more customers to get more money to grow and repeat the entire process.
Which part of the process you value is part of what makes you, you. When you are in charge of a business, then that is what defines the business. But it doesn’t matter what someone likes the most, values the most or wants the most. No money means no business. You can lay down every single business in the world on that process.

If you’d like to discuss this further I suggest doing so in a PM, or make a separate post in an off-topic category. I quite like the discussion but this isn’t the post for it.


#61

Agreed. Reputation is money in the long run.
So for EVE delighting HEBs/LBs should be more important than the money you get from them. We are the ambassadors of the product and the company. If we are absolutely delighted with what we get we will talk about it. But if we are pissed off and disappointed we will also talk about it - and probably even more. Initial trust in this concept and the company was high. I feel much of it - though definitely not all - was lost.

It is the only option, because not knowing as much as the EVE Team I was able to make predictions re. delivery dates that turned out to be closer to reality than their own predictions and promises. A pattern of broken promises is either ill will (not likely in this case) or mismanagement, lack of proper risk assessment.

Actually, it looks to me like Konsta & his team just assumed everyone will do their best as they have been undoubtedly promised. So they communicated based on those promises and hopes. This shows a) lack of experience esp. in dealing with a different culture and b) no prior risk analysis and hence no plan B for different “what ifs”. Which is exactly what any PM would do. Or maybe it is a deliberate communication strategy - keep communication upbeat to keep as many “believers” as possible “believing”. If so maybe it is working, I don’t know how many ppl are pissed off and disappointed and how many are delighted (though my little survey as to expected delivery date showed only few believed anything will reach them before Christmas).

I need it, I am just not desperate and can buy other options if it turns out to be rubbish.

Hire a PM with proper qualification :slight_smile: And one that has experience with trading with Chinese companies etc. Communicate more realistic estimated dates. Respond to queries about mysterious delays (as for example why there was a week of pause in production after HEBs shipped?). Focus now on ensuring everyone who is not satisfied with what they received is taken care of in an exceptional way.


#62

Dudes I am thinking of closing this thread as I don’t really think it’s relevant anymore. We know that we should do better but PMP certification and years of experience make things worse often times. Believe it or not but our project manager in Emdoor has PMP ceritification and to be very honest it didn’t help:)

We have experienced project manager on our team too but some things in v project were outside of our ability to foresee as when we started we were too dependent on our partners. Anyways we learned a good lesson and are ready to move forward!

Should this thread be closed for good?

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LB Shipping Corner
#63

@Konstantinos it’s frustration. Your right this thread dosent contribute anything meaningful at this point. Jus continue to please do your best for the community.


#64