EVE next project and why it should be a laptop (update)


#81

User accessible is great, but I don’t know how that would work out in the laptop formfactor. GPU and CPU are not replaceable for what I know. But I don’t know everything.


#82

CPU is not since 4th Generation Intel: it is factory soldered ball grid array. The GPU, though, can be serviceable if it is in the form of an MXM card (someone mentioned this above):


#83

Why not make bezels as thin as possible and use adaptive bezels? :slight_smile: Like seen here:

https://www.artefactgroup.com/work/intel-north-cape/


#84

You mean: why not waste actual screen space? I would prefer consistent and predictable experience that does not resort to unpredictable and non-standard software. :3


#85

MBP 17 bezles would be a great compromise.

You´re right!


#86

Well, for me it isn’t a feature creep, for me it is what I could use the most. You know how handy it is to use an external keyboard with a 15" laptop? It sucks. Alternatives? Finding laptops that have decent keyboards that have numpad and all the function keys and such. 17" is kind of big for an everyday carry, but that would at least have the biggest chance of having enough space for a decent keyboard. My 15" laptop has a compromised keyboard like most laptops, and although it is great that it has a numpad, it still can’t compete with an external mechanical keyboard. If the base could be flipped over, than it wouldn’t be between my laptop screen and my external keyboard, and thus my screen could be placed closer. Same for when trying to get a group work done, it is easier to gather around a flat lying screen in the middel of the table than to have the screen standing like a laptop and everyone needing to crowd after you to see the screen. I use onenote to take notes during classes. Forget that on a 15" laptop, the screen would be way to far for comfortably writing.

So for me the 360° hinge is pretty crucial for it to be a goor product. Otherwise I would just go buy the ridiculous priced yoga 720 since that thing suits my needs. It is that lenovo yoga 720 that did persuaded me to not buy a Eve V since it combines 2 devices for me. The one for taking notes and the workstation laptop. Not that it has the best specs (GTX 1050 is not the best, but would be much better than my GTX 950M v2 DDR3 4GB VRAM) but at at least it is the best option I have for the moment.

I do get it that when you just want a workstation laptop, that you won’t need 360° hinges. But that doesn’t make them a ‘useless feature’. 360° hinges would be one of the key features. It would make Eve stand out and would leave the option open to use it or not. But not providing them would make the Eve stand out less, and maybe attracting less people.


#87

Where do you get that from? I see this topic being excluded in this thread, because as the title says the discussion is about a laptop. But that does not mean that a Surface Book-like design is unwanted, it just means that it needs to be discussed elsewhere… up to the point when a poll will be created by the Eve team to raise the question what the next type of product should be.


#88

I agree with 99% of this, but the screen? I do like 16:10, but if you’re looking for a workstation, I’ve always found 3:2 better for writing. In my head, I’ve got an image of something Chomebook Pixel-esque in design language (only blacker, matter, more ports, and a more appropriate spec for getting work/play done (dGPU etc.) :stuck_out_tongue:


#89

I don’t know if that’s what Eve is doing or what I am proposing. Maybe something about being affordable without big compromises, while delivering what community - customers - want, maybe that would be closer?

Well, you propose here at least two things:

  1. laptop (for clarity sake let’s leave the hinge problem outside this post) that is serviceable - meaning user can change few hardware parts.
  2. laptop where user can replace a battery.

Now, there’s overlap here and I know about it. If you have the first, you probably have the second - but not the other way around.
So, three… no, four things. I’ll try to be brief.

  1. Such user-friendliness is good to have. However, it’s exactly “good to have” and not “necessary” to the experience. Because such modularity would mean compromises and additional mechanisms in place that would support it. Because it would need much more than just support from Eve side. You would have to find hardware that would fit. When EveL is released - that, potentially, would not be a problem. Along the road, though, when user finally wants to change something - should we say, few years? - it may happen that the parts are because of x no longer compatible.
  2. Percent of people that would actually want to deal with all the theoretical hassle of changing something on the hardware level is silly low. Yes, they are vocal, yes, they exist - no, it’s not 90% or 50%. It’s lower. Still, to support that dream, compromises would have to be made and just for very particular set of users that possibly along the road will change something.
  3. Battery being replaceable is ultra cool, in theory. It not only mean you can change your battery when it’s dead from all the cycles, but also when you are on the go and simply do not have the opportunity to recharge.
    Obvious downsides are compromises needed to be done to design replacable battery and fact, that when your battery will die, years in the future, you may probably think about new laptop either way. Also, the availability of the batteries itself - are batteries standardized?
  4. The aesthetics. Because it may be less sleek than otherwise, it will gather less potential customers. That may seem silly, but as we now even small details - “oops” button, for example - may be problematic. It’s a valid opinion, obviously, and being chunky/looking like a hand-made tank is a possibility, but in the art of balance I would guess replaceable battery would be interesting, even if personally I don’t see myself replacing the battery.

All that being said - maybe Eve will want and try to grab all the tinkerers and promote this specific angle heavily. I don’t know. : )

You don’t use keyboard shortcuts?

I visited shop with hardware today and they had Lenovo Yoga 900 on display. It’s very visible how much effort went into the hinge design. It’s impressive, like a timepiece. I can’t help wondering what we could get from Eve considering similar design limitation.

You know, after using V trackpad I don’t think we have to worry. : )

I don’t think this can be done. Clear goals are super important on every step of complicated projects and throwing everything and a kitchen sink will result in something, if I could guess, too complex for its own good, too expensive and problematic.

Is it? Wasn’t it brought up in one post?
I honestly would see 360 hinge before the user serviceability, tbh.

I can honestly say that many things about MBP would be great, even as a “compromise” : )

Feature creep is characteristic of a project, not use case. Obviously, we could find users of every possible combination of features. Hell, I would probably use 360 if we had one.
But with every feature and idea comes other that are needed for it to work in the first place, along with “nice to have” things that complicate already complex and problematic whole.
360 is like that. Let’s have 360 hinge, touchscreen, pen support, nice, slim bezels… and suddenly we have:

  • hinge design that went from “simple” to “complex, expensive and most likely custom”
  • touchscreen design that’s compatible with pen support
  • bezels, that should be slim when using it as a laptop and wider for tablet use.
    And probably 10 things that I don’t know about but are still super important when delivering quality product. Lag. Palm rejection. Color reproduction. Screen uniformity. Screen resistance etc.
    I don’t think 360 hinge is a useless feature and I don’t recall even writing that. It does have its use cases and users that will kill for one. But there’s perspective of one feature and perspective of the whole project - and features get cut all the time. To fit into the budget, money and time wise. To fit into design resources. To fit into manufacturing capabilities. You start with something beautiful and then you cut the fat away, leaving scars. Or you plan from the start with clear picture in mind of what you want to accomplish. Maybe even start small. Have a solid foundation.

More than anything I wanted opinions on the general idea of a laptop for factor for Eve next product. : )

A matter of availability. Considering Eve limited budgets of all kind, custom panel is probably out of the question. We are limited, then, to what’s possible to get. Because of that I suppose 16:9 would be the easiest, while still having a satisfying range of quality/performance/cost ratios.

We agree here! It could be a beauty.


#90

Eve could get the display that Microsoft, Apple, or other company uses, as you can see in the V. There are actually a lot of Chinese tablet or laptops that use the same 13" 3000x2000 display unit as the Surface Book.


#91

I think its not only that, but also the fact that you can charge the battery separately, so the device doesnt have to be tethered to the wall at any given time. I honestly dont see the appeal of wireless charging or fast charging on phones, as my phone can go from 0 to 100 in 6 seconds (0-100 in 6 seconds is, coincidentally, also faster than my car)


#92

The Surface Book is referred to as the ultimate laptop so my natural inclination in noting that many people in this thread did not like the docking mechanism I purposed was that a Surface Book-like device is probably not the best way forward for this laptop concept. But if someone, anyone here is absolutely dying to see a thread for a Surface Book clone concept come to being, please, by all means, feel free to take, use and remix everything I shared so far as you see fit to create a thread for it. :slight_smile:


#93

Good point. In that case, 16:9 would be totally fine, 16:10 if possible would be a bonus.

Thanks! :smile: I think we’re singing off the same hymn sheet with this. Super exciting stuff!

It’s just nice hearing people having similar ideas, all wanting the same thing. It’s so annoying waiting for big tech companies to bring out new products, only to see them bring out near miss after near miss. :frowning: You guys are really onto something great, and it’s nice seeing the community model’s working out so well.
Right. Back on topic!


#94

Sure! So maybe we could get the same basic panel as the newest MacBook Pro 15. I don’t think we would be able to, but sure, the possibility is there and it would be great, absolutely.
Again, it’s about the availability and price.

Sure. Having that said, that would mean another part to design, test, certificate, unless we would find proper charger. It would also mean another part in the product. The more parts, the more problems ; )

Your phone charges in 6 seconds?
I disagree about fast charging technologies.

Absolutely. In different city I had 16:10 and while I don’t miss it that much, the additional space was always nice.

Do we want the same thing? I see couple trends in this thread alone ; )


Surface laptop announced! What are your thoughts?
#95

All I’m saying that I don’t get this statement out of the thread, or do not recognize it that way. But maybe that’s just me. I think the mechanism is good aesthetically and smart.


#96

I mostly don’t. Right mouse button has everything I need. I rarely use keyboard shortcuts. But even if I would do them, I would prefer to use my external keyboard when at my desk. It saves me from that trackpad which occupies extra space and doesn’t have palm rejection. And even if it would have palmrejection, it would be mostly unnecessary for me. I would only use the trackpad if I don’t have a mouse and if the touchscreen isn’t sufficient.


#97

You must belong my generation I’m sure :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#98

Don’t forget that if the device has a user-replaceable battery, that battery needs to be safe to ship and handle on its own. Generally, that means it has its own plastic housing. Having the battery built into the device allows for soft cell battery packs to be directly built into the chassis, saving room and complexity.

Maybe not glue them to the housing so that they can be replaced if defective or spent, without having to replace the entire chassis. By Eve or their representatives.

Either way, especially with the way most development runs at a much slower pace nowadays, I don’t feel the need for upgradability is as pronounced as it once was. Just don’t skimp out on the memory to begin with, avoid budget components, and maybe allow access to an M.2 slot for expansion purposes (as storage is a feature where the need does grow steeply still, and development is still making great improvements in price and performance).


#99

I would totally buy an EVE Laptop if it features these points:

  • A real German keyboard DONTS: arrow keys somwhere shifted into the NUM Pad and Right shift key, NUM Pad with regular 0 (should be a double wide key), Left Control and Fn swapped like the Thinkpads.
    Sony VAIO Keyboard for reference
    I do not know if this is also such a great issue with english keyboard layouts?
  • Keyboard Backlight (Maybe RGB?)
  • Mac-Book Touchpad Quality
  • Exchangable Battery (Maybe service Flaps to upgrade RAM, SSD, …)
  • Dedicated GPU
  • ~15" Full-HD IPS Screen (If not a Touchscreen then matte)
  • HDMI
  • min 4 USB 3.1 (could be 2 USB-C 2 USB-A)

i7 Version Specs:

  • SSD up to 1TB
  • RAM 32 GB
  • Price range 1000-1999$

The problem with the laptops nowadays is, that there is no laptop with a German Keyboard which is usable and corresponds the standards.

@saibotma I am totally with you on this! But if the Laptop would have a 360° hinge we can just use the first ~135° :wink:

@Helios That is a very good point. I would totally go for that if I only need a screwdriver to replace the battery and nothing is glued like in the V or the Surface. :wink: The battery would be user replaceble once it is dead and that is important! That would also eliminate the need for service flaps.


To NUM-Pad or not to NUM-Pad
#100

I’m thinking of going through http://www.notebookcheck.net/Notebookcheck-s-Top-10-Multimedia-Notebooks.98608.0.html and trying to come up with some similarities, along with good things to take from each.
I was also thinking about perforation of the chassis itself, for better cooling performance, and use of bigger but slower fans.