EVE next project and why it should be a laptop (update)


#41

Between 1000$ and 1499$ seems about right. I really don’t know why it should cost more. Prices are inflated so much these days that people think 1500-1999$ is acceptable ( bruh.)


#42

As I understand it, @vithren proposes either a middle-of-the-road laptop or a class-leading halo device laptop for Eve’s next project.

If they went with a class-leading device, my only question is how a GTX 1070 and a quad-core could be put into this at the price range of $1000 to $1499? The cheapest workstation-class laptop I know of with these specifications is $2500. Maybe the @Team can answer this one. I have no experience in pricing for PC manufacturers.

As for a middle-of-the-road laptop, this category would be a toughie to compete in. The Dell Inspiron 15 7559 is under $700, which is about the cheapest I have seen for a quad-core gaming laptop with an IPS display. Its successor is similarly priced:


Here is an idea: combine a VAIO Z Canvas with a Surface Book into the ultimate laptop and tablet convergence device. Take all of @vithren’s features and incorporate them as well. It is both a quad-core mobile tablet and also a gaming and workstation laptop. Its powerful tablet portion joins forces with an equally powerful class-leading GTX 1080 in a dockable keyboard with additional battery inside.

The keyboard base with its dedicated graphics is cross-compatible between newer generations of the product: future-proof! This is accomplished by using a dock with a standard Thunderbolt 3-port insertion mechanism–no Surface Connector proprietary garbage to deal with. Even if you are not interested in a tablet and never use it as a tablet, the upgradability factor makes it unbeatable.

You are free to upgrade either the upper tablet portion or the lower keyboard base containing the graphics whenever you want down the road. You can even mix and match the keyboard base and the tablet portion at purchase. This would force Microsoft to get off their butts and make the Surface Book more than just an overpriced dual-core laptop with mediocre dedicated graphics.

In this way, Eve differentiates itself from the rest of the market and defines the market by creating the first gaming laptop and tablet of its kind. Think of this as almost an Eve V Gaming or Eve V Workstation. I just see no clear path to victory making just another gaming laptop with a bunch of cool features tacked on, but this appears to be something that I would be totally interested in.

Eve has just barely established for itself as a tablet PC maker and it has only two tablets to its name. Knowing this, I think Eve taking the time to establish a name for itself in tablets would be worthwhile before completely diversifying. In this way, they avoid the pitfall many new startups stumble into of spreading themselves too thin but they still end up innovating a heck of a lot in the process.

What do you think, @Xify?

Summarizing:

This laptop would be Eve making a device that is actually deserving of the title of “the ultimate laptop”–Microsoft’s own words for the Surface Book, a frankly lame and overpriced dual-core laptop–but in a way above and beyond anything Microsoft, Sony or any PC gaming company has before conceived. There is the quad-core processor portion in the upper tablet chassis and the high-end graphics (an actual GTX 1080 or Vega graphics) in the dockable keyboard base.

The device is future-proof for new releases by making the docking connection cross-compatible with a Thunderbolt 3 port mechanism. In this way, people can upgrade either the tablet portion or the keyboard base down the road. In other words, you can upgrade the display and processor or you can upgrade the keyboard and graphics. This makes the device modular, a huge win for gamers and workstation users, besides being both a tablet if you ever need it and a full-fledged workstation or gaming laptop when duty calls.


#43

I did also think about that. But than I remembered that it would need a kickstand since the vaio Z canvas isn’t lightweight, and I don’t think you can squeeze a quad core in a surface book like tablet, so it would have some bulk and weight attached to it for cooling. My bet is that a convertible laptop will get more customers since it easily can function as a laptop (no need to attach or detach anything), it is a cheaper form factor (no solution needed for attaching/detaching keyboard or cooling a quad core in tablet mode). If the 2 in 1 convertible with performance can get around or below the price of a regular laptop, than I would say it is a win. There are not many companies that have a convertible with performance. Asus has had a convertible with GTX 950m, lenovo has now there yoga 720 with i7 7700HQ and GTX 1050. Those are great starting specs. But I think a gtx 1060/1070 should be an option. The biggest complication for Eve is the hinge design, since there is no standard for that. Other complications are optional (such as making it thin, or making it ultralight) so I would say they are easily just avoided.

But what I see for how overpriced the yoga 720 is: the 15" 1 TB PCIe storage version with gtx 1050 comes for 2000€ here. If we have a look at the legion y720 than you have a 15" laptop with 7700HQ GTX 1060 and 1 TB PCIe storage for… 1700€. So maybe for the price, the yoga 720 should have a GTX 1070 (about 200€ more expensive than a GTX 1060 that I see here). I can’t believe that the 360° hinge would cost 300+€.


#44

Honestly, that would inflate the price radically while being an engineering nightmare with all the additional need for battery and cooling. It sounds really good on paper, but this will be very expensive in R&D and in the end for the consumer.


#45

Having a GTX 1080 would be fun on a laptop but I think it will be an overkill part. Normaly a flagship laptop card was 100w ( we thought ). Nvidia broke that limit and bruteforced a 190w GTX 1080 and a 150w GTX 1070 into laptops. The current 100w card is the GTX 1060 and the RX 470 on AMD’s side

As you can see, they are also veeeeeeery expensive

I would wait for Ryzen and Vega mobile parts. Ryzen for one because Intel, hasn’t done **** on their mobile processors for now 4 years. I’m currently using an i7 4800MQ and I can’t believe I can still compete with the i7 7700HQ in benchmarks. Vega also because it would calm down the price a little. ( well, Ryzen also )


#46

Can you guys please explain to me why you would ever need a 360° hinge?

From my point of view it just complicates design and production. Additionally it will be more expensive and it will break more easily. It will look ugly and i don´t see the point in using your laptop as a tablet… if you want to have a tablet then buy a tablet like V.

I need a solid laptop with a solid not wobbling screen…it doesn´t even have to be a touchscreen. Laptops that have got an excellent touchpad don´t need a touchscreen. A touchscreen just complicates everything (look at MBP it doesn´t have a touchscreen and is more usable than every other laptop on the market, because it has got a gorgeous touchpad).

What i care about is:

  • a great keyboard (actually don´t need numpad, cmon guys learn 10-finger-typing and you will never ever need a numpad again)
  • a great and big touchpad
  • 1440p screen (else things will be to small to read), 1080p is okay, too (should be ips)
  • decent front camera and mic
  • decent speakers (like in V)
  • finger print reader would be a nice “addon”
  • enough ports (we discussed that in many other threads already)
  • quad core cpu
  • nvidia 1050 grade gpu
  • 8-16 gigs of ram
  • most important: small screen bezles, metal or very high quality plastic body, as lightweight as possible, as portable as possible (because it´s supposed to be a laptop, not a desktop replacement and i want my laptop to be portable!!)

#47

A touchscreen is something I wouldn’t want to miss, because every time I use a laptop with a touchscreen I use it regularly since it’s pretty often simply easier to just use your hand. But that’s a luxury complain, of course. The 360 degree hinge and a pen would still go hand in hand for me. I can’t imagine any use case, where you would need a laptop in (thick) tablet format, if you’re not drawing. But my view might be limited. Some Yogas have their speakers on the bottom for example. Then you need it to hear anything. But that’s just insanely dumb design…


#48

I don’t think Windows is great to use with touchscreen most of the time. It’s useful when browsing web (scrolling, mostly) but the buttons and small, activation zones tweaked for mouse and in general, hands quickly fatigue.


#49

Yeah, but when I’m lying around in bed and browsing I prefer the touchscreen ~80% of the time :grin:


#50

as @SyrtakiVampir pointed out, a 360 hinge is vital for drawing. From my point of view, it would be insane not to include one. But I understand I have a different use than you. Beyond drawing - I spend a lot of time at cluttered desks discussing designs and whatnot with people gathered around. Having the laptop in tablet mode means we can all see it, and it covers up less (vs a 180 hinge) of the desk (which are often limited in space and allowing more room for sketchbooks, etc)

Sometimes you just want the keyboard out of the way and the 360 hings allows for that.

What Eve needs to decide - is saving the cost of the hinge worth alienating artists? Will more people NOT buy it because of the extra cost than people who WOULD buy it because it has the hinge? I don’t know the answer to that, as I am biased - most in my circle would be firmly on the “pro-hinge” side of the debate.


#51

This sounds like a great laptop. How would you make it so people prefer an Eve laptop with those specs, though, over something like this (priced at $799)?

Eve lacks the brand recognition to produce just another laptop even if it truly is made better than another one with similar specs. Minimally, I think the 360 hinge and pen support is what we would need to get people interested.

Others probably disagree on this other part, but I think making it modular (in that way, upgradable and future-proof) by making it composed of a quad-core tablet portion and keyboard base with high-end graphics (connected together via Thunderbolt 3) would be the optimal way to go.


#52

What I thought was special about the V is that it was a unique two in one in it’s own. There’s no other 2 in 1 can can get me decent performance, decent battery life, active pen and thunderbolt 3.

If the Eve laptop really wants to shine it would need the following

  • Six core cpu, I think Ryzen mobile can pretty much deliver that vs the lackluster i7 7700HQ ( max 35w )
  • A gpu with gtx 1060 performance for less power. At best a gpu with 1070 performance and the tdp of a 1060.
  • Gpu with 4gb of vram minimum (important for content creation). At best 8gb.
  • 360 hinge for pen support. With Ntrig
  • Should weight less than 2kg.
  • Screen…whatever, decent colors, good enough resolution and almost no bezel. 1440p minimum
  • Ram… 8-16Gb
  • 70Whr Battery, with 9 hours of wifi surfing ( similar to the Razer Blade 2017 )

The cpu and gpu are to anticipate the future. The GTX 1060 is already a year old and we shouldn’t care about it anymore. In my opinion the Eve laptop should be a Razer Blade with 360 hinge and active pen. I might be a little biased towards Intel and Nvidia. I just don’t like what they are doing right now with the performance and price of their modules.


#53

Maybe even GTX 1080-level performance!


#54

Will Eve be there when the next projet is defined?

Facts :

  • The V is an excellent computer (It’s called ‘computer’ on the EVE V site).
  • There are only between 2000 and 3000 buyers now - normal because the V is not yet for sale outside the Eve community.
  • All community members are hyper enthousiast about the V - totally normal because they shaped and then payed for one.
    Not known (yet):
  • The number of V enthousiasts outside the Eve community.
  • The number of actual buyers in the near future.
  • Will Eve still be able to start the next project when it will be is ready to start.

This is not a pessimistic outcry by a depressed and rarely stable somebody :cold_sweat:
Does anyone have some more insight / facts to share


#55

The development was payed off before first prototype shipped, iirc. I guess and hope Eve makes money on every V sold. Even if margins are silly thin. I would imagine team will end up with more money than they had before V.
In the end, it’s also about finding a good partners. I may not have the best opinion about Intel business practices, but I’m impressed and humbled by their involvement in the project.

I may be worried about how feature hungry people are, but I think Eve is in good hands and they will be here for a while. : )


#56

Could you expand on your idea, please? I’m interested in your take, in a bit more details.


#57

Absolutely. Still, it’s not about the preference for input method itself, but about how interface works with it. I’m using almost exclusively Firefox and I’m sad to say that small and text-based navigation is less than as pleasant as it should be.


#58

I can see the benefits! At the same time, I dread of time when I will need the keyboard base and it won’t be with me, as the less mobile portion. So, maybe, if we could combine them… if you get what I’m saying :wink:


#59

I’m no techie - so excuse me if this is a silly idea… would it be possible to have the gpu in the (detachable) keyboard part, and just use the onboard graphics in the screen part when the two are detached?

Personally I’d rather have a dedicated gpu at all times, but wondering if the keyboard gpu is technically feasible?


#60

Yes to both questions. Essentially, this would be more or less like putting an eGPU box (except it is a mobile GPU) in a keyboard dock. A Thunderbolt 3 female port on the bottom of the tablet would link up with a Thunderbolt 3 male port on the keyboard dock’s locking mechanism. If you never even use it as a separate tablet, you could upgrade either the tablet or the base whenever you would want.