Are we sweeping support under the carpet?


#26

I want to start this by stating again that this community is not a support community. This is a tech community, a place to hang out discussing tech, and a place for people to help Eve crowdevelop devices.

But why do we have #support categories then? Like @Helios said,

The #support categories are there to help those who have a problem the community can help with. The community can’t help if the screen on your V arrived broken. Only the support team can do that. But the community can help if you have a problem with Windows, as any community whose field of interest involves Windows can.

This is a good argument. But at the same time, this creates an expectation that there’ll be a resolution to the problem by posting in the community. It won’t.
I and other team members get messages every day with people with issues that just aren’t/ can’t be handled here. The only thing we can do is direct them to the support page, because otherwise the people who can help won’t see it.

We want to make it clear that the community shouldn’t be the place to go to resolve certain issues. If we continue to have topics on these issues around it sends the wrong messages, creating more work not only for us, but also the people looking for help with their problems.

I would be very interested in what exactly you mean by this. Are you talking about the category structure, the landing pages, topics, or something else entirely? Do you have any concrete suggestions on how we could improve?

I’m always looking to improve the community, and UX is a big part of what I focus on. Any feedback is always very welcome.

We currently use Discourse (their community) for this community. I might be biased, but I am really fond of the software and the people behind it.

I would be very interested if you could provide suggestions on other platforms that would work better both as a place to crowddevelop and hang out discussing tech.

Does the app you describe (or something similar) exist already? Or would you be able to develop and maintain it? Does/ would it have the same stability, support and continuing evolution that something like Discourse has?

Here I both agree and disagree with you. For certain contexts reddit works well. For others it’s horrible. While I can see the appeal of branching reply trees, I don’t they would work well for the kinds of discussions we try to encourage here.
(Though I will admit that I am biased, as I’m not very fond of Reddit as a platform nor its structure when beyond a certain size)


#27

I’d suggest keeping the Support category there, but not showing the corresponding threads in the default/latest/category view. Id does clutter the forum experience.

Or even give it a “hide support threads” option somewhere.

Is that possible?


#28

You can “untrack” different categories (at the bottom of the respective thread/category) and they won’t show up on your Latest page, but you won’t know, if there might surface something that interests you without looking into the categories themselves then.


#29

@nawthor : I think customers posting their issues for actual support via the support form is absolutely necessary. However, posting the same issue on the forum in the support categories may provide insights to your team as to the nature of some of the software/driver/configuration problems. It also ensures that Eve’s quality issues are not hidden from view and that customers feel they have some recourse to days of no answers or even public addressing of some pervasive issues. Eve brought the customer support challenge upon itself, unfortunately. I’m confident they’ll right the ship soon enough.


#30

I don’t understand this. Was there a typo in there somewhere, or do you actually think the team isn’t getting any insights into “the nature of some of the software/driver/configuration problems” of the V through support tickets? The team that you see in the community is the same team that sees the support tickets.

There’s nothing ‘extra’ about posting problems in the community. On the contrary however, having people send support tickets and post about their problems in the community makes doing a statistical analysis on the support problems much harder. It will take much more time and man power to look through both sets of data for duplicate entries, and easily gives the possibility that something was overlooked. There isn’t any benefit to Eve to have people submit formal support tickets and post in the community - it’s worse.

This really is the only positive. It wouldn’t be good if any problems with the V were hidden from the world, especially when the company is so devoted to being open with the community. There’s nothing wrong with community members discussing amongst themselves their V experiences as well as their support experiences.

The problem comes in when you expect Eve to solve your problem because you posted in the community about it. The customers direct communication to Eve as a company should always be through the formal support channel, doing any support through the community (even PMs) is just a bad idea all together.


This can’t be stressed enough, the support section of the community is not for support from Eve.

It is for people that have questions about Windows, how to extend battery life, why isn’t photoshop working right for me, why did my eGPU die, etc. Continually asking “@ team when will my problem get fixed?” is not the point of the community at all. Things take time. Eve isn’t the only company working on these issues, they have suppliers that they are working with to also fix problems, and those suppliers can be very slow.

If you have an issue to discuss with Eve, please do so exclusively through support. If you want to discuss something with the community, do as you wish. Do keep the two seperate.


#31

This is not true. The ones that will read the posts in the community are the Community Managers, and for the most part, the only thing we can do is to tell people to contact support. The support team don’t have the time to wade through the community, because they are busy answering support tickets.

Apart from that everything else you said was completely on point.


There’s extra work for us :wink:


#32

I don’t fully agree with that statement. While certainly subject to condition I think it’s your job to inform us of issues as a community manager. Your responsibility is to filter out those which don’t matter. The screen crack is, as far as I can tell, quite a serious issue. I agree that not every single person has to make a post about it, and I don’t read them at all. But it is your responsibility to keep the community up-to-date about this issue. “We’ve encountered the screen crack x amount of times out of the y V’s we’ve delivered. This is below/among/above the average statistics and as such […]”

There was this huge topic about “Hire a proper PM” which had a lot of those kind of arguments. It got closed because it didn’t got constructive. Afterwards I PM’d @Konstantinos about doing a evaluation on the V project (internally) and post the findings in a topic. I have yet to see that.

I understand the team is busy. But you’re always busy and (if everything goes well) always will be.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying you’re doing a bad job. If any I think the community is thriving and the managers should be complimented for that. This is not an attack on any of you.


As for the original issue. I want to be kept in the loop about what the issues are, so we as a community can learn from the issues. However, seeing post #127 about “When will my V arrive” or “crack in screen” or anything that could be answered by a FAQ doesn’t interest me. It does (more clearly) state that it’s an issue that should be addressed. But I rather see those people being helped by the support staff and let some filtering be done before the community is being involved. If it’s an issue, involve the community. If it’s a lone problem, you don’t need to tell us.


#33

I really don’t know what can be said about a screen crack. It’s cracked and support is the only one that can help.

Don’t really see the point of “informing community about an issue” if the issue is a clearly because of a screen that has a crack. I think everyone knows that there maybe defects and these can happen after QC or in transit or in some cases after few days of use. It can only require that one “screw” has been tightened too much etc etc.


#34

Notice the winky face. That was a joke.


#35

If it happens often enough I think the community should be informed that it’s acknowledged as an issue and give an explanation about how the issue is occurring. If it’s a screw, say it. If it’s something else, say it. If it’s something different almost each time, say it. It doesn’t have to be a big statement.

Informing the community is so we can learn from mistakes, and keep the team in check so they don’t make the same mistakes. Besides that I really don’t see any downside in informing us. I agree that I don’t care about the posts about “screen crack” while I understand the reasoning behind creating them, I can’t do anything about it.

Oh internet and tone of voice :baby:


#37

Having one ‘megathread’ for screen cracking issue would be a great idea I think, as it gives other people some idea on the degree of the problem, what approach that other users have taken, and what response they get from support (e.g. how long it takes for the whole replacement process to finish). It gives people a better idea on how to handle the situation.

Meanwhile, having 3982749826 separate threads about the same issue/topic is never a good idea


#40

So it appears that at least some people don’t want to see V device support disappear from the forum. Perhaps a compromise is to leave it, but as @Patrick_Hermawan kind of alluded too, have the community managers be much more aggressive with merging related threads in order to keep the number of repetitive similar threads down.

Of course, Eve is under no obligation to do so and I wouldn’t mind if they continued moving support away from the forum as planned, but this might be a compromise.

If this is the case, perhaps we should consider changing the #support category’s name to #community-support or something similar (@iKirin, @nawthor, @Helios)


#50

In short, and staying with the analogy of the topic title:

This is not about sweeping support under the carpet. It’s about getting support out of the room where the creative development happens, and into the room where the support team is waiting to help you. Making that distinction clear by not having these issues in both places makes it easier for people with issues to find which room they need to be in.

As I have stated in the original announcement, and as has been repeated by others in this topic, if people have a defective V or an issue with their order, the community cannot help them. The support team can. And there are also topics where the community can help, and those people will still be helped in the community.

Posting issues in both ‘to get an overview of the situation’ does not help the people looking for a resolution, as they still need a solution from the support team. It does not help Eve, as we already have an overview of the situation in our ticket system. It does help to satiate the curiosity of some community members. But I do not think that this is enough to negate the negative impact the old way of doing things has on resolving support issues.

We are also not doing this overnight. We are changing our support page on the website. We are building up our FAQ to answer the questions that are asked often. We are meeting daily to ensure that all the different teams involved know what is going on so that we can improve what we can do, how we do it, and how we communicate it to our customers.


The support team has been working overtime to get back to everyone who opens a support ticket. They are only a handful of people though, with other people from team Eve jumping in to assist when they can. They are also constantly analyzing what they are doing to improve, based on feedback from within and without the team itself.

At the moment, the biggest issue is the availability of replacement stock. As we build to order, we do not have a stock of Vs lying around to handle these as quickly as we would like. Though we had some extras, we did not anticipate things like 4PX shipping damage to be so prevalent. This means that people who contact support and reach the point where the next step is replacing the device, are currently impacted by delays. We are aware of this, and will of course do everything we can to resolve it.

The support team sends out hundreds of mails each day in their efforts to help our customers. Sick team members work on from home. And as far as I know, candidates are being reviewed to expand the support team specifically.

Things will get better. And though I’m sure it’s getting old by now, we do ask for your patience.


I’ve cleaned up this topic to keep it on-topic.


#51

If you are talking about performing a post-mortem, it is too early to do that. There are still kinks in the system and they have not yet sorted out all their issues. It needs to be done when you can clearly look back on the project without clouding your opinions with current issues. (the current issues always seem the most urgent/important, but that may not be true) If you are talking about a midterm review, I don’t really see the point. Regardless, the results will not be posted - there are too many things we as community do not know (NDAs) or have no right to know.


#52

I disagree that it has no point. I can see why you would say that though. As there was quite an outrage about all the delays, audio issues, screen issues, etc. An midterm evaluation would be a good thing to post even only for the show to reestablish trust in community members. Sure not everyone lost their trust, but a non trivial amount did lose some trust.


#53

The reason I said I did not see the point of a midterm review is that they can only review things that have happened in the past - the parts of the process they have already completed and will not come up again until the next project.

And you can bet that any current issues they have are being looked at by as many eyes as they can.

But you are completely correct - it is a matter of trust - something that some have lost. Hopefully it can be regained.